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Islamophobic Swiss Ban Minarets

By November 29, 2009

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Verboten: Swiss voters approved a referendum, floated by the ultra-right-wing People's Party, to ban minarets. (rytc via flickr)

How can 59 million people be so dumb, Britain's Daily Mail famously asked in a day-after headline of the re-election of George W. Bush in 2004. The Daily Mail can notch a new one for its shame gallery: How can 3 million Swiss be so bigoted? Switzerland's People's Party, a far-right, nationalist brood whose members dominate the Swiss parliament, is celebrating: its initiative to ban minarets in Switzerland passed with close to 60% of the vote today.

In late October when I first wrote about this latest expression of European Islamophobia, the sense among pollsters and analysts in Switzerland was that the referendum would fail convincingly. A commenter here predicted that, just as they had other initiatives floated by the People's Party, including a proposal to boot out of the country family members of immigrants who commit crime (a measure tailored after Nazi-era purity laws in Germany), the proposed ban on minarets would fail, too. Two weeks ago, according to the Daily Mail, a survey showed 53 per cent of Swiss saying they'd reject the initiative, which was opposed by the Swiss government and parliament.

They didn't. Call it the booth effect. Call it the shame of admitting to pollsters how one's bigotries rate. Call it what you will: the Swiss have cast one of the most shameful votes in theirs and in European history (though to be fair to European history, religious bigotry today is a veiled imitation of its bloodier past incarnations).

And now Switzerland, the country that once hosted the first Zionist Congress in Basel, must live with its once-upon-a-time image as a tolerant and enlightened country shattered by reactionary bigotry in a country whose Muslim population is barely 6% out of a total population of 7.5 million. Fewer than 20% of Switzerland's Muslims practice their faith. Switzerland's entire census of minarets adds up to two. Two minarets. One in Zurich, one in Geneva. Not that it would have, or should have, made a difference if there were 10. Or 100. Or 1,000. There is no difference between a minaret and a church steeple. Neither has a claim greater or lesser than the other on faith. Both can be equally imposing visually and off-putting, or comforting, to the ears: churches have their bells, which can be infernal even to well-mannered Christian ears, and minarets have their muezzin's chants which, for all their beauty, can get on one's nerves in the middle of a nappy afternoon.

Switzerland will have to contend with the Muslim world's reaction, too. Boycotts? Trade snubs? Less oily money circulating through Geneva's banks? Then again, Arab unity, let alone Muslim unity, are chimeras. The Swiss image will pay a price, but it'll be as largely self-inflicted and contained. Switzerland isn't alone in its reactionary mood against Muslims. It's a European trend, from Nicolas Sarkozy wanting to ban 300 or so women from wearing their burqas in France to bloodier outbursts in Germany and elsewhere.

Bruce Bawer, who three years ago published the screedish While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam Is Destroying the West From Within (Doubleday), must be smiling. He approvingly quotes the Norwegian head of Kripos, the Norwegian FBI, saying that there was a direct link between immigrants and the country's crime rate, and that asylum seekers' fingerprints should be freely accessed by Kripos. "You realize you may be seen now as someone who hates foreigners?" he was asked in a newspaper interview. "Yes," he replied," and I have no problem with that. Someone must dare to say it out loud."

To which Bawer adds: "That was in 2003. Those willing to 'say it out loud' are still few and far between."

Not in Switzerland. The difference between your average Swiss and Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the poster child of racist rants, has just gotten much narrower.

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Comments

November 29, 2009 at 2:23 pm
(1) Imogen says:

Where is your indignation when 10 Christians were burned and shot to death in Pakistan earlier this month? Or when Islamic Malaysia banned importation of Christian Bibles with the name ‘Allah’ for God? Or when Egyptian Muslims began rioting and looting Christian shops? All of these things have happened only in the past month, but anti-religious-minority oppression has been a staple of Islam since the Quranic era. I’m not even mentioning the zakat, or the death penalty prescribed for conversion from Islam, or the million other acts of intolerance perpetrated by Muslims every year.

If you’re going to use a soapbox to speak out against injustices against minority religions, there are much, much greater ones occurring day in and day out in the Muslim world.

And this is why the Swiss and other Europeans are rightfully afraid of the intolerant, authoritarian ideology of Islam.

November 29, 2009 at 2:36 pm
(2) Ivan Magalh„es says:

Pierre, the people has voted.
Why is this so disturbing to you?
I think you only conceive democracy when it goes your way.
I dont think the minarets are a problem, the problem is our lack of rules.
Try to go to iran and make a referedum about christian churches.
Go ahead try that.
Our European democracy is not perfect, but alows a journalist like you to have an opinion.
Try that in an Arab Country……
In Europe you can compare the average Swiss Citizen with the the iranian leader, without repercussions.
Try that in an arab country.
Be ashame…

November 29, 2009 at 2:46 pm
(3) Schweizer says:

I am so embarassed about the decision of my fellow Swiss citizens. Seeing the minarets as a Muslim symbol allegedly revealing their will to take over Switzerland and the world, as well as the burqas as a reason to oppose the Islam as a whole they ignore the fact that most of the Muslims in Switzerland don’t support burqas and that the construction of minarets still would have been subject to the canton’s or commune’s administration.

November 29, 2009 at 2:50 pm
(4) Rob says:

Islam is the most intolerant religion and indeed political structure that the free world has to deal with today. The west has evolved into a welcoming and tolerant society of all races, genders, sexual and religious beliefs and it is this that we are trying to preserve by ensuring that fascist islam does not get a foot hold in our society and impose their wicked sharia laws.

How dare you call us islamophobic, racist or anything else when muslim countries across the world are violently intollerant of any other belief system other than their own.

If you would like to bring up intollerance of peoples beliefs then why not focus on one of the many muslim countries that opress their Christian minorities or sentence homosexuals to death?

At least the Swiss have allowed the building of 150 mosques in their country unlike Saudi Arabia, where Christians practice their religion in fear of persecution.

Hypocrite!!!

November 29, 2009 at 2:56 pm
(5) Pierre says:

Imogen, Pakistan or any other place where bigotry rules the day isn’t my standard. Switzerland’s own pretensions to being an enlightened nation is. Besides, you speak with ignorance about my indignation: if you follow this site even cursively, you’d have noticed that it’s relentlessly critical of Muslim or Arab bigotries at every level. Europeans are fearful of Islamic influences in their backyards? They should be more concerned with adopting Islamist bigotries. The Swiss have.

Ivan: I don’t question that “the people has voted,” as you say. But nowhere have I ever said, either, that democracy in and of itself absolves those who participate in its functions of their racism, their prejudices, their stupidity. To the contrary. Democracies lay those idiocies bare (as the election of George W. Bush proved so well, beginning in my own home state of Florida, where democracy has a rather pitiful record of late). And yes, of course you can always say, as your friend Imogen does, that it’s much worse in Arab countries and in Iran. But again: those aren’t the standards of enlightenment, are they? At least they’re not mine. Nor am I going to apologize or take it as a favor that I am able to speak my mind where I do. That’s not a privilege. Nor is it merely a right. It’s an entitlement. The Swiss of course have exercised theirs. So have you. So do I. You may think what you wish, as the Swiss do. You must also put up with the consequences, as the Swiss will. There is no way of getting around the essential point of today’s vote: It’s bigoted, it’s Islamophobic, it’s as regressive as some Muslim nation’s prohibitions on churches etc. To defend it on the mushy grounds of relativism is to be complicit with the vote.

November 29, 2009 at 3:58 pm
(6) John B says:

Why should an idealist urge to appear as a more tolerant nation have priority over its security. I would rather put down my image than my own life.

November 29, 2009 at 4:06 pm
(7) Pierre says:

Reason is not a dogmatist’s choice of either or, John B.

November 29, 2009 at 4:45 pm
(8) John B says:

Reason is not a self-sacrifice for an idea, that i think, is Islam not Switzerland. Besides, intolerant or “dogmatic” reasoning is still not an argument against self-preservation.

November 29, 2009 at 5:30 pm
(9) Schweizer says:

Everyone who says that the intolerance of Arab countries justifies a ban of minarets here is just thinking backwards. Freedom of religion is part of our constitution and nothing that someone else does should make us give up these values. And I truly believe that most of the Muslims aren’t intolerant or extremist. It’s just that the extremists have the loud voices and bring bad reputation upon all Muslims.

November 29, 2009 at 5:39 pm
(10) Richard says:

Violent crime is almost unknown, and when murders are committed it is usually between asylum seekers. Like it or not, 44% of the persons convicted of criminal offences are foreigners, half of whom do not even officially live in Switzerland. And a lot of them are connected with Albanian (Moslem) organised crime.

November 29, 2009 at 5:45 pm
(11) Pierre says:

Richard, has it occurred to you that the disproportionate conviction rate may have something to do with racism, as it certainly did, and does, in the American criminal justice system, where blacks are considerably overrepresented in prisons, just as their sentences are ridiculously steeper, when compared to convictions of whites, for the very same crimes? Might today’s vote in Switzerland not suggest that very point–that the country may have a bigotry problem in its genteel midst?

November 29, 2009 at 6:33 pm
(12) Jay says:

Great Article Mr.Tristam

The racism and Islamophobia in Europe is disgusting to watch. It’s the same type of propoganda that was spread by the Nazi’s. The Nazi’s spread images of the world inside the tentacles of a huge octupus with the star of david on it’s head as a way to symbolize how the jews were such a huge threat to the germans lives and how they (the jews) are planning on taking over the world.

Now in 2009, Europe is doing the same thing AGAIN, except this time they’re using the Crescent Moon and Star instead of the star of david as the symbol of the new “threat” that’s attempting to take over the world. It’s pathetic to see europe has not learned ANYTHING over the past 60 years and is still filled with ignorance and hatred, and this new vote by the Swiss further enforces their sad state.

To the people saying “oh look at how this person is treated in afghanistan etc etc”, you’re comparing yourself to the corrupt governments of other countries to justify your racism? It’s the same thing when people justify israel’s actions by saying “but look hamas did this and that”, thus they’re labeling the Hamas as a terrorist organization, yet they compare their actions to what Hamas does.

To the person saying christians are mistreated in the M.E., have you ever been to an Arab country? Christians have been living in the Middle East for thousands of years, millions of Coptic Christians live in Egypt, if they were so mistreated why aren’t they fleeing in the millions? How suprising that you’re spreading lies about someone else being racist to justify your own bigotry and hatred.

Oh and Imogen, please don’t speak when you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. “Iím not even mentioning the zakat”, really? Why aren’t you mentioning the “zakat”? Could it be because you don’t even know what it is? The Zakat is a one of the Five Pillars of Islam and it is “is the giving of a small percentage of one’s possessions (surplus wealth) to charity generally to poor and needy Muslim individuals”. You have a problem with giving to charity and the needy?

Rob says “The west has evolved into a welcoming and tolerant society of all races, genders, sexual and religious beliefs and it is this that we are trying to preserve by ensuring that fascist islam does not get a foot hold in our society and impose their wicked sharia laws.”

How does that make any sense? “The west is tolerant of all religions, that’s why we’re intolerant of Islam”, can anybody explain this to me? That’s like me saying “I love jews. Which is why I think they all need to go jump off a cliff”. Please try to make a little sense here.

Last thing that I find funny is when haters and bigots say to anyone that criticizes them “stop talking about us and go talk about what those folks are doing wrong”. What a pathetic excuse of an argument, you’re not addressing your racism and bigotry, you’re just trying to shuffle it under the carpet by turning the attention on someone else.

November 29, 2009 at 6:40 pm
(13) Schweizer says:

Muslim organized crime in Switzerland sounds ridiculous to me. If you mean terrorism, we haven’t had that here yet. And the Muslim extremists would certainly not support any other form of organized crime for it’s goal is money and striving for personal wealth is just opposite to the extremist’s ideas.
I think that most crimes commited by immigrants are due to bad integration.

November 29, 2009 at 6:54 pm
(14) StopIslam says:

Finally, someone in Europe has woken up to the plague that is Islam. Congratulation to them for doing the right thing. Hopefully, France will stop the construction of the mosque in Marseille.

Britain really needs a wake up call now. All of Europe, Canada and the US needs to purge the plague of Islam from its shores. When they start building churches in Saudi Arabia maybe we can rethink our thoughts. Until then forget it.

We have woken, we aren’t going to stand for your religion messing with our culture anymore.

November 29, 2009 at 7:15 pm
(15) Richard says:

No, it is a fact.

There are no ‘mights’ about it.

Switzerland cannot be compared to USA which is a country built on immigration and has competing identities which can crystallise as racist if that produces social group advantage.

Crime always has been low in Switzerland. It still is.

But the Swiss don’t like crime and regard it as a moral defect.

Moslems can’t use racism as a argument to defend their anti-social behaviour.

A line has been drawn in the sand.

Moslems are safer in Switzerland than in Algeria, say.

They are being told to respect their host communities values.

November 29, 2009 at 7:50 pm
(16) Stop Islam says:

Bravo Switzerland!

These events are actual events from history. They really happened! Do you remember?

HERE’S THE TEST

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
A. Superman
B. Jay Leno
C. Harry Potter
D. A Muslim male extremist

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by :
A. Olga Corbett
B. Sitting Bull
C. Arnold Schwarzenegger
D. Muslim male extremists

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
A. Lost Norwegians
B. Elvis
C. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
D. Muslim male extremists

4. During the 1980′s a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
A. John Dillinger
B. The King of Sweden
C. The Boy Scouts
D. Muslim male extremists

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
A. A pizza delivery boy
B. Pee Wee Herman
C. Geraldo Rivera
D. Muslim male extremists

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old,
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
A. The Smurfs
B. Davey Jones
C. The Little Mermaid
D. Muslim male extremists

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
Trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
A. Captain Kidd
B. Charles Lindberg
C. Mother Teresa
D. Muslim male! Extremists

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
A. Scooby Doo
B. The Tooth Fairy
C. The Sundance Kid
D. Mus..

November 29, 2009 at 8:23 pm
(17) Pierre says:

Stop, you’ve got the last 40 years of cherry-picking pretty well covered. How about the previous 2,000 years of Christian extremism? I’m afraid even About.com’s bandwidth wouldn’t be enough to accommodate the catalogue.

But again: what the hell has any of this to do with building minarets in Switzerland? Ah! of course: in your view, the world’s 1 billion Muslims are all extremists, minarets are Muslim, therefore minarets are missile-shaped trojan horses. Brilliant. And evolution developed noses in order to accommodate glasses.

You remind me of my Catholic upbringing. I still have the kidney stones.

Anyone for stopping stupidity? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

November 29, 2009 at 9:25 pm
(18) Reasoned says:

Frankly, with the way that the extremist wings of Islam bully around the weakling moderates things are going to get much worse for Muslims in the West…

Unfortunately, we are probably 2-3 major terrorist events away from camps.

November 30, 2009 at 1:01 am
(19) Ron says:

Maybe the US & other nations should follow Swiss style direct democracy?

The Swiss just voted to ban minarets on mosques and this is a great exercise of their unique form of direct democracy regardless of your views on the subject. But my question is why do the Swiss get to overrule their politicians and parliament and here in the US, we donít have that right?

Letís bring Swiss style direct democracy to the United States so Americans can vote on the Wall Street bailouts, government health care, whether to audit or abolish the FED, or require Congress declare war before we invade another country. Read why Switzerland is free and America is not and help restore citizen control over the US government and Congress currently under control of special interests. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/holland9.1.1.html

November 30, 2009 at 1:11 am
(20) Rudy says:

Well Pierre, you’ve got the smug, self righteous rant down pat. Congratulations!

I doubt the Swiss lied to pollsters out of shame, but rather, fear. Fear of the stigmatization from the absurdly pc culture you represent. There is nothing phobic about ‘Islamophobia’. Islam as an ideology is overwhelmingly supremacist, sexist, and violent and until it is reformed, bugger all the Muslims who moan and complain. Get your own house in order.

And jay, your an idiot. Coptic discrimination and muslim on Copt violence is well documented, as is the dramatic decrease in non-muslim populations throughout the middle east.

November 30, 2009 at 1:19 am
(21) John B says:

Muslims will continue to get marginalized unless they stop interfering negatively with security and legislative processes of the West. How else could the Swiss curb a global political movement (of misogynists, xenophobes, and spiritually-arrogant extremists) that is rooted in, and based so rigorously on Islam? I think the Swiss voted appropriately, as there is not one way of going about this in a politically correct manner without risking your security and national interest. The ban is a political maneuver before anything, and i assume the Swiss people have decided that a potential threat to their security and culture outweighs the cost of having a few minarets less. It makes sense to me…maybe i am the president of Iran too?

November 30, 2009 at 2:42 am
(22) FairPlay says:

When the Orthodox Serbs committed the biggest genocide and ethnic cleansing campaign in Europe since the Holocaust (in which Christians committed genocide against Europe’s defenseless Jewish community) nobody talked about how evil the Orthodox Christian ideology was and nobody contemplated the banning of Orthodox Churches or their spires. I personally never blamed the Orthodox Church and am simply using it as an example of Europe’s blatant hypocrisy. It is sickening to see the Europeans always blame the graceful religion of Islam for ever single act of violence committed by a Muslim but will never blame any other religion for the war crimes and genocide that were committed by its adherents. It is clear that the way in which the media covers world news is slanted towards Islamophobia and the hatred/distrust of all Muslims regardless of their personal believes or actions. It is racism and fascism in its purest and most frightening form. It seems that Europe and especially Switzerland has learned nothing from the Holocaust and is preparing another such holocaust on Europe’s defenseless Muslim population.

November 30, 2009 at 5:46 am
(23) spirit of lepanto says:

If you lived in any, really any, of the west European countries you would not be so complacent in the face of the Islamic threat that is increasing slowly but surely. This latest example highlights again the vast gulf between the governed, who mostly loathe or fear Islam , and the governing (and their apologists, such as yourself) classeswho are burying their heads in the sand, whilst hoping that the problem will not come to a head in their lifetimes.
Believe me, we, the goaded and patriotic peoples of Europe are close to despair on this issue; but many are close to revolt. The future looks bleak. But one thing is certain; our elected politicians have not the desire or the resolve or the perception to tackle the Islamic problem.

November 30, 2009 at 6:07 am
(24) Very happy Christian says:

Well done Switzerland. Schweizer you’ve nothing to be ashamed of. You should be very proud your Country stood up to the spread of intolerant islam. Now all we need is the rest of our European Countries to grow balls and we’ll all be happy.

November 30, 2009 at 8:48 am
(25) Jurg says:

Islam is intolerant? Probably yes, not as a religion but what people made out of it (which is the same at the end of the day), but just because one person is less progressive and more intolerant does not justify another to act the same! It is amazing how many people here left a comment basically saying “Oh why don’t you look at them muslims – they are intolerant” – to justify your own intolerance? This is the biggest hypocracy of all! There are many reasons why people could be afarid of Muslims – the image is not very good – no doubt. But it works for 1 billion people in the right way and exploited by few thousands to advance thier own agenda. Shall we be afraid? Look at your own history – history of christianity – it is full of many gruesome pictures – far more discusting that modern islam presents. Thing about that. You are shuting you doors tight but all you do is turn to ignorance and rejection and yes Phobia!!

November 30, 2009 at 10:09 am
(26) Cartman says:

Mister Pierre Tristam,

first, there are 4 minarets in Switzerland, not 2! (Geneva, Zurich, Wangen bei Olten (SO) et Winterthour (ZH)) and an other one in Neuchatel that everyone forget because it has nothing more religious !

Secondly, I am swiss, and I really think that minarets are nothing to do in Switzerland, in our culture, in our landscape!!!

Third, I have nothing against muslim and their religion. And the facts are that, in our beautiful country, muslims are free to pray, to build mosques, and have the right to walk everywhere wearing religious symbols!

I think they were very lucky in Switzerland to enjoy as much freedom. Can we say the same thing in their country for the other religions ???

If muslims want to make what they want in foreign countries, they should first open their mind to foreign culture !

November 30, 2009 at 1:04 pm
(27) Rob says:

The atrocities commited by Christians happened a long time ago so why keep bringing it up in an effort to reason with how Muslims are behaving in todays modern society.

Name Christian atrocities and acts of terrorism that have happened in the last 50 years and I will double it with Muslim ones.

A lot of lessons have been learned with how the Christians behaved so why should we have to experience these dark times again with another extremist religion? 2 wrongs don’t make a right!

However you look at it Pierre this is a narrow minded religion that is dead set on violently oppressing anyone who doesn’t adhere to it’s strict laws. There is no room for negotiation with Islam.

Our societies live happily with equal rights for women, gays, etc. why the hell would we welcome in a belief system that would fight to change this and that is set on persecuting innocent people because they are different.

Nearly all of todays conflicts involve muslims. You say that only a handful of extremists are responsible for this reputation yet where is the public outcry from these people? The masses certainly show their faces when a silly cartoon is drawn or somebody desecrates the Koran! Where were the masses after 9/11 or 7/7? and you wonder why people are suspicious and don’t want this in their countries.

The leader of the Muslim Council of Britain praised suicide bombers and the killing of our soldiers. This is the representative of British Muslims!

Yes, these actions can be labelled as phobic (not racist as Islam is not a race) but can you blame people for being afraid of such an extreme bunch, dead set on bringing their cultures and ways of life to other lands without giving an inch of theirs? That’s called a take over, an invasion.

you can harp on all you like about how out of order you think people are for daring to speak up about this dark age religion but until muslims can debate their problems peacefully without threats to kill you better get used to people being concerned and attempting stop this extreme way of life from entering ours.

Buddhism is a religion of peace. Islam is anything but!

November 30, 2009 at 2:41 pm
(28) KIMMUS says:

Here’s a direct quote from Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. “Minarets are our bayonets,” he said. “The domes are our helmets, the mosques our barracks and the believers our army.”

December 1, 2009 at 6:51 am
(29) Vincent says:

Well, this is such a bigoted, overworked, crooked, fake and hateful article! I guess your position is to remind US people, and the rest of the world, that they should bomb and kill civilian muslims/arabs without feeling any regrets?
Keep up the good job Pierre! You are perfect in this position… People who hired you must have an even worst opinion about arabs than I do.

December 1, 2009 at 6:54 am
(30) Jay says:

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the number of bigoted comments here. I think I know have a slight understanding of how Jews felt in the early 19th century in Europe.

To Rob

You said name christian atrocities that happened in the last 50 years and you’ll double it with Muslim ones?

Okay, lets see

1.) How about the Murder of thousands of innocent Muslims by Christian Serbs?

2.) How about George W. Bush’s Genocide in Iraq of more then one Million innocent Muslims? Remember his “gog and magog” comparison?

3.) How about the Holocaust? I’m pretty sure Nazi Germany was predominantly christian. Well, the holocaust did happen 60 years ago, and you said 50 (I wonder why?) but oh well.

4.) Hiroshima?

5.) Nagasaki?

Both dropped by Christians and killed, injured and maimed countless innocents.

Can you double the number of innocents killed by Muslims in the past 60 years compared to JUST these five events? I highly doubt it.

You ask where is the public outcry and condemnation from Muslims for things like 9/11 and terrorist attacks?

Muslim do vocally condemn these actions. There was an interfaith conference in Florida attended by huge numbers of people from all 3 Abrahamic faiths, yet you didn’t see anything about it in the news. There was a conference also regarding terrorist attacks and condemning acts such as them with prominent Muslim scholars speaking, yet you also didn’t hear anything in the news about it.

Do you know why that is? Because it’s not sensational garbage so the media doesn’t cover it. Yet instead of a logical, polite discussion, let it have been 3 Muslims yelling at somebody at a protest, it would get circulated on all news outlets with a freeze frame of them mid-yell with an angry look on their face.

December 1, 2009 at 7:34 am
(31) Pierre says:

Vincent, what article are you referring to? Certainly not this one. Unless you’re confusing it with some of the comments.

December 1, 2009 at 10:54 am
(32) KIMMUS says:

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the invasion of Iraq and the Holocaust were not done in the name of christianity.
The Nazis were pagans, their beliefs harkened back to ancient pre Christian Germany, and ancient Rome. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was done to end World War 2 without the loss of thousands of allied lives in an invasion of Japan. In hindsight, sixty years later, we can condemn it, but it has never been documented as a specifically Christian act. The Serbian massacres of Muslims is another story, however, it is instructive to realize that other Western Nations
(NATO) went to war with Serbia to put a stop to the genocide. Serbia was bombed and thousands of western troops invaded to stop what was going on.
A tit for tat violence stat countdown does nothing for the argument, in any case.

December 1, 2009 at 11:09 am
(33) Rudy says:

“Can you double the number of innocents killed by Muslims in the past 60 years compared to JUST these five events? I highly doubt it.”

Hey, why stop at 50 or 60 years? How about 90?

1. Turkey’s slaughter of over 1 million Armenians
2. The Iran Iraq war(1 million +)
3. Syria’s Hama Massacre(40,000)
4. Lebanese Civil war
5. 1991 Algerian Civil war(150,000)
6. The murder of innocent Serbs by Kosovars.
7. etc.

See how that works?

Jay, I repeat: You’re an idiot.

It’s not enough for a group of muslims to simply say terrorism is bad. There needs to be a reformation in the Islamic world started at it’s institutions of learning, namely Al Azhar. They either need to strip out all of the exhortations to violence in the Quran and Sunnah( a very large job ), or reinterpret it. There also needs to be civil rights for religious minorities in Islamic lands.

Besides all of this infantile exercise is rather besides the point. When Christians begin perpetrating mass slaughter in the name of Jesus Christ and do it on a large and organized scale AND can lean on a learned clergy to justify their atrocities, as is happening in the Islamic world today(and has throughout history), then you’ll have a point.

December 1, 2009 at 12:44 pm
(34) bob says:

Jay I don’t think I need to add anything else as the points have already been cleared up! Hitler wasn’t a Christian he was more Pagan as mentioned. All of the other acts were not committed in the name of Christianity. Whereas all of todays atroctities are committed in the name of islam with very little public reaction from the muslim community. A debate in Florida is hardly comparable to worldwide uproar because of a silly cartoon now is it?

Even muslims have killed more muslims than Christians have killed muslims in the past 50 years. I choose 50 as a round number btw NOT to avoid the world wars. You dont hear muslims harping on about suicide bombers blowing themselves up outside of schools! Muslims are just set on dirtying western reputations and playing the victim card to further their political ambitions.

Muslims cannot govern themselves and have proven incpable of stopping the ‘handful’ of extremists in their midsts. All of the main mosques in London have been infiltrated by extremists and the muslim community don’t seem to care enough to put a stop this. Until this can be rectified it would be plain stupid to allow this religion to grow and gain a foothold and political voice in our countries.

It is sympaphisers like you who will be crying when you mother, sisters, wives are treat like second class citizens because we couldn’t painlessly nip this in the bud now by poiltely asking muslims to adhere to our laws or go and live in a muslim country where that sort of behaviour is tolerated!

The autocratic teachings of islam cannot work in our democratic societies muslims can only live by their religious teachings so democracy is not even an option that they are willing to consider once the numbers are there.

December 1, 2009 at 2:46 pm
(35) Crackerslapper says:

European are racist bigots and low lives. The arguments I’ve seen here are a joke. It’s obvious that they are cry babies and racist hypocrites. The vast majority of the worlds terrorists are white males, that’s an empirical FACT. For the idiot who didn’t know, RFK was shot by a Christian Arab. I found an awesome website the other day detailing the ugly face of the whites :

http://www.whitewatch.wordpress.com

What say you now, nazis?

December 1, 2009 at 5:28 pm
(36) geoff says:

Crackerslapper why don’t you back up your ‘facts’ with some proff then if its so empirical? We would be really interested to see this.

The website that you recommended looks very reputable! I think that you would like Britains Daily Star Newspaper. Another example of serious new stories!!!

BTW Sirhan Sirhan did not assassinate RFK in the name of Christianity unlike much of todays misery which is done in the name of Islam. This chap was mentally ill and not even a strict Christian.

Nice effort though!!!

December 1, 2009 at 5:57 pm
(37) FRISKY says:

Crackerslapper: If Europeans are such racist bigots and low lifes, why are thousands of Muslims flocking to live there, risking their lives to cross the English channel, for instance, or paying thousands of dollars to cross the Mediteranian to get to Italy or over to Greece? Surely they’d be better off in their own countries, according to your rationale.
The Swiss ban on minarets is bizarre, but it shows a
fearfulness that is not healthy. But there is some cause for this fearfulness. Muslims are even killing Muslims that don’t follow the Salafist or Wahabi version of Islam.

December 2, 2009 at 1:12 am
(38) Jay says:

I’m done replying to these fools. I honestly feel as if I’m talking to a group of Nazi soldiers and trying to explain to them why killing innocent jews is wrong or how the jews aren’t trying to take over the world as they’ve been brainwashed to believe.

So long.

December 2, 2009 at 10:59 am
(39) FRISKY says:

Jay,your only reply is to name call.
Sure, there are some people who think Muslims are
trying to take over the world, just like some people believe Jews are trying to take over the world.
Some believe in an alien conspiracy.
No one on this blog is talking about killing anyone,
they are talking about minarets.
I see no problem with minarets. Fundamentalist Islamists don’t believe in such frills and don’t have them on their mosques anyway. But you might
stop and think about why a slight majority of Swiss voters voted this way. There is more to it than the cliche ISLAMAPHOBIA card. Although there is a danger of tarring everyone with the same brush, as previously mentioned, the Muslims do that quite well with the Jews. (ironically).

December 2, 2009 at 2:32 pm
(40) Bob says:

Jay, what are you rattling on about? You haven’t come out with anything of any sense since you’ve been on here so don’t go thinking that you can bow out of this on top. Your feeble attempt to justify muslims behaviour by attempting to compare it to apparent Christian behaviour didn’t even stand up. You have offered no argument whatsoever with your uneducated answers.

The same applies to all of the other Dhimmis on here. It’s one thing simply calling someone a bigot, fascist or racist but it’s another to actually prove anything that we’ve said wrong. Muslims ARE commiting atrocities around the world and ARE attempting to throw us back to the dark ages with their oppresive beliefs and some ofus are willing to speak out against these crimes to humanity.

Jay said… “I honestly feel as if Iím talking to a group of Nazi soldiers and trying to explain to them why killing innocent jews is wrong or how the jews arenít trying to take over the world as theyíve been brainwashed to believe.”.

…are you talking about us here or muslims? Because the last time I checked the ones calling for the death of the jews and believing that the Jews are the ones taking over are the Muslims!

Bosnian and Soviet Muslim Waffen SS troops fought alongside Hitler during the Second World War to eliminate the Jews, showing their hatred for other beliefs long before Israel even exsisted! Nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity! Fool.

December 2, 2009 at 3:52 pm
(41) Muad Dib says:

Europe should be afraid

December 5, 2009 at 12:47 pm
(42) robert e says:

There are four minarets in Switzerland. How many crosses do the Saudi’s or the Iranian’s allow to be displayed in their countries. The double standand.

December 5, 2009 at 2:07 pm
(43) DAVI says:

Like Pierre says, we don’t want to be dragged down to the level of the Saudis. Too much is being made about minarets. I haven’t seen any Islamic outrage against the recent bombing of a mosque in Pakistan by a fanatic Islamic suicide bomber, that killed quite a few people. There’s a mosque bombing every couple of weeks in that hell hole. These are the kinds of things that scare the Swiss and others, but a kind of zoning that does not allow for minarets seems small minded, unless they were worried about the noise. That would bother me, that would be the reason I’d vote against it, unless they were going to stop broadcasting the calls to prayer. We have enough noise from church bells. GRRRR.

December 22, 2009 at 11:56 pm
(44) Justin says:

Talk is cheap … Did you do you homeworks first? Have you been living in an islamic environtment (i’m not talking about moslems, but islam)? Or in a religious community? Have you been discriminated and persecuted because of your religion? You are free to give your opinions, but tet’s not judge by the appearences. Swiss is a very blessed country (not like mine), and at the end of the day, whether it will stand still or fall, is up to its own people decicion, not our cheap opinions.

March 13, 2010 at 7:44 pm
(45) Bob says:

Here’s your homework Justin you pathetic Dhimmi. Don’t cry when your female loved ones are oppressed and your rights are taken away as it was your ignorant blindness that contributed to this fascist takeover.

To all of you that feel it necessary to defend this evil and oppressive belief system here is some hypocricy for you all to enjoy.

Pierre, what do you have to say about this? That we shouldn’t stoop to their level? Let’s just sit back and wait for the impending kick back to the dark ages then eh?!?…

3000 muslims attack coptic Christian community because their imam told them they were building another place of worship…

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Crowd-of-3-thousand-Muslims-attack-a-Coptic-Christian-community,-25-injured-17876.html

Wake up people!

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